As HOI3 was released, I made up my mind how I could mod it to something that would “feel more right” to me. But I didn’t had much time and also was kind of shocked about the performance of the new sequel. So I did initially only modding “on paper” to get some ideas etc..
As I saw a post from madprofmike in march 2010 I wanted to share my thoughts about the engine:
Link to the post of march 2010 in madprofmike’s thread.. Click me! -CHOCOLATE – brigades/regiments/battalions open conversation. post 12
( ! You have to have a Paradox fourm account as you need to log in to the paradox forums to read the links !)
Later I decided to do my AHOI-Mod also for HOI3 and went public in December 2010. I had also a suggestion from madprofmike about Support-Units wich was already similar what we can see now in the HPP/RPM Mod. But I still liked and like my system more:
Click me! -mapdrofmikes suggestion/question -post 53
Click me! -My answer below -post 54
I later posted my initial suggestion to madprofmike in post 8 of my AHOI-Mod thread:
Click me! -Old land units related techs of AHOI-Mod-GEM-one -post 8
“New Division System”:
I thought a lot about what was in reality and what is possible with the engine. And then thought again what would be useful in terms of playability. So we had in reality many different types of f.e. Infantry Division in size and composition, the same as with other “weapon types”. Nearly all nations used the Division as the smallest organisational unit that could fulfill tasks on their own. (It had all needed weapon types to fulfill any tasks, inf, signal, food, medic, art, at, aa etc.) The Division is the smallest organisational unit used in the game. (Can use a Commander etc. but is build up by Brigades.) And it would be nice to see all that implemented in the game without having a “clickfest” to reorganize a whole army with new equipment. Wich could happen if we had for each small size/equipment or Battalion an unique unit.
- An example from “reality”, Infantry Division:
-Staff (Signal, HQ)
-Supporttroops like: Food, Medical and munitions, Transport
-Recon (Sometimes only available at Corps Level)
-Main component are Infantry squads with small arms. (Regimental size, 2 or more, Regiments had from 2 to 4 Battalions..)
-Heavy Weapon squads up to Battalion size. (Hvy Machine Gun and Mortars.)
-Inf support Artillery (Direct Inf combat support, mostly battalion size directly attached to the Regiments.)
-Divisional Artillery (Mostly Regiment size.)
-Anti Air Guns (Mostly Machine Guns up to small calibre, hvy calibre first used only in HQ attached formations, in Batalion size)
-Anti Tank Guns (Small Cailibre, Hvy Calibre used only in HQ attached formations, in Batalion size)
-Engineer (In Batalion size, rarely in Regimental size-> Stalingrad, german Assault Engineers)
Other Division Types had also Tanks(and Tank like, f.e. Assault Guns.) from Batalion up to Regimental size.
And also Armored Cars were used in the recon role.(Battalion size.)
All in all an “average” Division had around 15.000 men. With at least 2/3 of them were designated for fighting.
(Ranges for Divisions are mainly from ~9.000 up to ~25.000 men.)
- The composition of a WW1 Division was something like this:
2-4 Infantry Regiments
1 Artillery Regiment
Train, HQ, Medical..
- Up to and in the timeframe of WW2 there were added in nearly all Divisions:
– AT incorporated into the Regiments and the Division.
– Anti Air Battalion
– Engineer Battalion (were already part of the Div in WW1 for Germany.)
– Assault Guns
– Tank Destroyer
So the buildup of Divisions changed with changing circumstances.
So, f.e. the US-Troops had no Engineers integrated in the Divisional organisation. But nearly every Division had one Engineer Battalion attached from higher level!
The compositions often differed from nation to nation because of enviromental differences or different “doctrinal” views.
(Or they just had to use what they have at the moment, f.e. the russian troops at the beginning of the War.<-Organisational Problems as well.)
That brings us to the following, as we have:
- Combat troops
– That fight in the front(“Front Combat Troops”):
*Infantry (Garrision, Militia, Colonial, Regular, Marine, Bergs, Para, Commandos, Engineer, Jäger…)
*Armoured (Armoured Cars, Tanks -Light to SH-, Halftrucks, Armoured Personnel Carrier…)
*Anti Tank Guns (Where used also against “targets of opportunity”, Bunkers etc.)
*Anti Air Guns (Where used also against “targets of opportunity”, Infantry and the Hvy-AA also against Bunkers and Tanks)
*Infantry Guns (Where used also against “targets of opportunity”, Tanks etc.).
– That fight from the rear(Rear Combat Troops):
*Artillery, Light Art. up to Railway Guns. (Include also the SHvy Mortars 200mm+ and Rokets)
*Anti Air -that was also used againts or Tanks.
- Non Combat Troops
– That don’t fight at all but increase Org and mobility:
*Non Combat Troops (Some have just minimal fighting power for self defense)
*”Logistic” (HQ, Food, Munitions, Medical, Train and later Trucks..)
(Mobilisation is given first by horse (Cavalry), Motorised (Trucks, Motorbikes), Mechanized (APC’s, Tanks) and finally by Helicopter.)
- If we look at the size of formations and equipment together with the role, we get the following:
(All types represent an own Brigade in game.)
Type 1: Non Combat (“Logistic” = HQ, Food, Munitions, Medical… Regiment size)
Type 2: Main Combat (Infantry, Tanks, APC… Regiment size)
Type 3: Direct Combat Support (Engineers, AT, AA, … alone Battalion size, together Regiment size)
Type 4: Indirect Combat Support (Artillery… Regiment size)
- If Type 1 could not be implemented with an impact to the full Division(f.e. high org and lower the usage of supply?) then it would not make any sense to use it. It should then maybe be integrated in the other types.
(As for now, I think it is better to have this abstracted in the game trough tech advance.)
Type 2 should vary in size depending on techs(f.e. triangular or square build, or trough having 3 or 4 Regiments into the Division)
Type 3 should vary in size depending on techs that integrate weapon types like AT, AA and so on into the support Brigade.
Type 4 should have the size of a “real life Regiment”.
The Typical Division would look like this:
– Type 1 = 1 (average = 1)
– Type 2 = 1-6 (average = 3)
– Type 3 = 1 (average = 1)
– Type 4 = 1-4 (average = 1)
Summ = 2-8 (Brigades in game = nearly doubled the Brigades compared to the average now.)
If we don’t use Type 1, we have the average of 5 ingame Brigades.
We could build Artilery heavy Divsions (Russian Art Divisions), Some without Art Regiments and Support Regiments (Militia) , build a (Heavy) Tank Regiment with a support Regiment an have some sort of a “Fire Brigade” or give Paras a Support Regiment and you have the “Luftwaffen Feld-Division”(not dropabel any longer, because the Support Reg is not dropable…)
Also we would be able to incorporate new weapons into the “support Brigade” (Type 3) and thus represent the organic structure of a Division a bit more as time passes by.
Via Type 2 would be the overall strength of a Division defined.
That would also lead to no more sole light Tank Brigades. Light Tanks will be a part of Tank Regiments. If you havent researched medium Tanks, than your Tank Regiments consist out of light ones. The “mix” is done via techs. Light Tanks/Armoured Cars will still be used for Recon and in MotMech-Cavalry Regiments..(And there you will see the pics of that type..)
You research a tech “Hvy Tank Department” and then one Company of the tank Battalion will now consist out of Heavy Tanks.
Game wise, everybody would build a Type 3 with his normal Divisions, because it brings ernormous extra firepower in many circumstances.
So no need to extract it into more sole units(Battalions) to manage.
For extra Firepower of some special sort, we can use the corps-troops that are available as AA/AT/ART/Eng and Rak-Art Corps-Regiments
(Again as mostly used in reality)
Long Story short, my opinion:
The current HOI engine is not able to handle a “Battalion based Divisional Model”. And the managing overhead is to big because of the existent managing features are designed for Divisions not Battalions.
Also, I guess that the Spy-System and also the AI is using the size of a Regiment as a base. So it seems only logical to me to use just a Military System that is based upon Regiments aswell.
Use a new Divisional buildup consisting out of 4 base types described as above.
All Divisions would consist out of 2-9 Brigades. The average would be ~5.
A big diversity ist given mainly trough mixing these types.
Size of Regiments can be defined by techs.
So a technical or doctrinal research may lead the player to a new composition of his Regiment.
As more and more tanks were used and Armies were in need of AT. You research a tech now that allows you to incorporate AT-guns on first Divisional and then another on Regimental level.
Research of Self Propelled Guns(AT, Art and AA) just change the values of former Regiment type.(AT, ART, AA have with upgrade now better Toughness and Defensivenes, lesser softness etc..)
In the end we have a more “realistic” approach of Divisions and more diversity without denying other nations to copy our buildup or let the player design his own personell Division type.
The AI can be more more easily told to build the different Divisions set ups we have seen in the area of ww2.
I hope that describes my approach for a “New Division System”.
That also shows not how old my initial ideas are, but the first time I posted them in the public. Long before any other mod had that approach..